As you all know, I love evertything related to F/M domestic discipline. It has always turned me on. And I know that I have written here often that it is not just a game for me. It is super meaningful and deep and emotional for me. It really is.
But nevertheless, over the years, I realized more and more that it is in fact a game only. And I gotta tell you that realization sucks. In my experience, the men in my life do what they wanna do. If they want to submit to me they do, if theu dont wanna do it, they don't. And there is nothing I can do about it. I am not interested in abuse. I dont wanna be abused and I dont wanna be an abuser. Threfore it is totally in their hands what they wanna do. And I am in the position of taking and accepting the breadcrumbs of submission that are thrown into my direction.
I do of course understand the concept of 'consensuality" and I totally get it that the submissive partner needs to have a say in the whole thing in order to be safe and feel safe and cared for. But in reality that means that he has got all control and I got none.
If he is not in the mood for it, he wont do anything I want. I have never been in relationships where I , even in a vanilla setting, could just rely on my power as dominant woman. " Do this, because I say so". I could, when the guy was in the mood, but God forbid I wanted something at a time when he did not want it or when I wanted something that he did not wanna do/give.
And on top of it all is the physical power dynamic that exist between most men and women. It is a scientific fact that men are physically stronger than women. I am actually a strong, big, tall woman. I know I've got a lot of physical strength. But I had to learn the hard way that men are stronger. I remember one time when a drunk boyfriend wanted to drive us home and I said: "no, I am driving." He just reached over and forcefully ripped the car keys out of my hand. I did not even stand the slightest chance.
Basically: the woman can pretend to be in control, but in reality the guy is physically stronger and able to do whatever he wants.
In the past, I got a lot of pleasure out of coaching and supporting men, and giving them warm and loving maternal guidance, but lately I am finding myself more and more thinking: "You wont get anything from me."
On a side note: on this day 9 years ago my grandma passed away. And shortly after that my boyfriend ghosted me. I feel a bit embarrassed to say that, but I still think of him often and I am pretty convinced that I am still traumatized by his ghosting.
Allegedly he is in a relationship now and in a way I am happy for him, but I am also still hoping and wishing and craving that he would reach out to me and that he- by reaching out to me- would help me to find the peace of mind that I am so longing for.
I am pretty sure that he is not reading this blog anymore. And I think he has no frigging idea how much I am still hurting from his ghosting. Sometimes it feels like: "yes, I am finally over it/him" but sometimes the pain is still so overwhelming that I am doubting the right of my whole existence.
Rationally I do understand that he had his own problems in life and that he did what he did because he is generally avoiding difficult conversations. But emotionally I am thinking: "WTF? Am I so damn worthless that I dont even deserve your attention and your compassion? what we had was so deep and so wonderful for me, I gave you all I had to offer, I would have thrown myself in front of a truck for you, and you chose to ignore me for the rest of my life?"
It takes a certain kind of cruelty to do to someone what he is doing to me.And I hate it that I am still thinking of him, missing him and longing for his approval.
Firstly, my condolences on the sad anniversary of your Oma's passing. Hopefully you have many fond memories to look back on and they bring a smile to your heart.
ReplyDeleteThe boy (not man) that ghosted you is a cruel, selfish narcissist. There's no other reason for his behaviour. And of course it still hurts after all these years and of course it makes you question your worth but it's him that isn't worth your time or thoughts. And I know people - even the ones you trust implicitly - could tell you that until they are blue and it won't change how you feel. He acted the way he did because he has no heart or conscience. You feel the way you do because you have both. I hope you find the peace of mind you deserve.
On the subject of submission and F/M domestic discipline, it is a bit of a tightrope. Personally, I deeply crave the maternal guidance and discipline you describe, the authority, the consequences. Yes, it's sexual, yes, I get a great deal of gratification from being submissive and even more from being submissive to a woman who truly, deeply wants the same. Being spanked is great; being spanked because the woman loves me and is responsible for correcting me is heavenly.
But...how far does it go? As a grown man, I have earned the right to my own agency. I have worked hard, earned a good living, am reasonably informed and intelligent, and think my opinions on things that directly affect me should be heard and considered. Do I give all that up? Are all my decisions now out of my hands? What I wear, eat, do for leisure? I know I could do it for a few days but a lifetime?
As a child, it is simple to submit to maternal authority; she literally provides and controls every aspect of life. But as an adult it would be very difficult to surrender one's hard-earned independence.
In the end, I think each couple has to find the balance that is right for them, that allows each party to get the most out of the relationship, and just as in the vanilla world, that requires a LOT of communication and a great deal of compromise.
Well, this really sucks. I'm mostly with FL on this. I do suggest you read a few blogs that deal with F/M led relationships. I'd recommend this blog because they've had their ups and downs and because both spouses write about their thoughts and feelings about chastity and spankings https://www.malechastityjournal.com/
ReplyDeleteAs for you, perhaps I can help you and others with a simple thought:
There are 3 types of relationships only one of which is acceptable in 'polite society' (femdom led ones SOMETIMES an exception, never maledom) These apply to all romantic relationships INCLUDING marriage:
Sole Executive Authority. Someone makes literally all the decisions OR at least all important ones. Their words is Law in the household and any deviations of that (say allowing mom charge of the discipline) are by delegation only. The feminists typical idea of a "Patriarchal" relationship, though few men have actually had the extreme control in their marriages this can lead to (basically literal domestic slavery if taken to an extreme). On the more lenient end "mom" or 'wifey' (in femdom relationships can be a man, so 'dad' or 'hubby') is in charge of the kids NORMALLY (the difference between this and the next stage is who gets "Final Say" ...in these relationships in all things the SEO gets final say in all things) and the domestic servants, etc.
Multiple Divisions: The relationships various parts (financial, domestic, disciplinary, social gatherings, household maintenance etc) are divvied up. Each of the partners has "final say" in his or her own division of the responsibilities. In my opinion this can still be Femdom if most of the divisions are in the woman's hands, those she gets 'final say' over most decisions. In a more traditional arrangement, dad might have 'final say' over finances and run it day to day and mom might run the kids and kitchen and gets 'final say' over those areas of the relationship.
Egalitarian: Ahh, the only politically preferred choice of domestic arrangement! The LEAST STABLE and the one most prone to arguments. Probably the one that arguably most relationships will not survive because it takes either very agreeable or conflict adverse people to navigate such waters. Basic idea: No one gets 'final say' in ANYTHING. Everything is always up for grabs. Chores are assumed to be divided perfectly equally, regardless if one works outside the home or not. Everything is based on voting and either partner has a unilateral veto (though ironically, socially, the man will far more be pressured to give in then the woman in the vast majority of cases).
Anyway, I urge you to think about the type of relationship you want and clear it with any man you get with and PROBABLY you will have much better luck.
I hope I've been helpful. I've long admired you and worried about you and I've been reading your blog for over a decade now, though I haven't written very much.
Be well, wonderful Tina.
Clarence
aWhat makes
DeleteI believe that almost all the relationships we think of as FLR are actually Multiple Divisions relationships. Each partner has primary authority in certain aspects. But what makes one FLR is that the woman has the right to punish the man, usually physically, when she disapproves of his behavior, and he feels obliged to obey and accept the punishment.
ReplyDeleteDear Tina:
ReplyDeleteI am so sorry for your pain, and for your loss. I can really feel your pain in your writing.
I feel like your examples are good examples of how people think they know what they want in a personal relationship, but they don't have any real experience in what they are asking for, and they may not know that they don't really want what they think they want.
I myself have engaged in something of an FLR for a while, and our relationship has been fantastic, but the FLR part has come and gone over time, and then resurfaced at times. It's very complicated to *know* what one likes without actually living that way, with the other person. This is true for both partners. We always have to be flexible, and move in ways that suit both partners.
I wish you the very best going forward. I hope you continue to grow and find happiness in your current and future states
James
Ghosting is a cowardly and incredibly cruel act. I am sorry that happened to you. I honestly don’t get how people can do that to someone.
ReplyDeleteJames (not the one who commented on his FLR as I could never have one)
@all: Thanks everybody for your thoughtful and warm and interesting comments. It is always very comforting for me to know that peole like you are out there.
ReplyDeleteI wish I would have processed my pain better already. I know that 9 years is a very long time to grieve about the loss of a relationship. But it is as it is. I cant change it, I am still not over his ghosting. It feels like a huge breach of trust, it is still breathtakingly painful.
Sorry for not relpying to each of you individually, but I worked all week and was /am sick all weekend. And tomorrow it's back to work for me.
Your pain from your long term partner ghosting you is absolutely understandable: A grown up person who behaves like that is a selfish, horrible coward. I can't even imagine having to reconcile that kind of betrayal with the man you thought you knew so well and the trust you had in him. It's appallingly cruel, and so so hurtful. It makes you question everything (him, the relationship, your judgement, all of it), so it's not surprising that those feelings have lingered for so long.
ReplyDeleteI can't address your 'just a game' take fully in a comment, but I will say this: Obviously a submissive has to consent, and yes with F/m, men are generally physically stronger then women. I understand how you go from those facts to 'I actually have no real control so it's just a game', but I disagree.
What is missing in that analysis is both of you mutually WANTING a D/s dynamic, agreeing how it will work, honouring your agreements, being committed, working together to create this F/m relationship.
It's not 'me vs my submissive' where I'm struggling for control. It's 'us together creating this dynamic because it's what we fervently want'. I dominate, he submits.
If my submissive just didn't want to do a thing that's within our agreement because he doesn't feel like it that day, I don't just go 'oh, ok then' and drop it. It means something is very wrong: We'd talk about what's going on, and we'd address it.
Coincidentally, I looked for a post I wrote about this way back when, and something YOU wrote was the catalyst for it :). There's a lot more detail on this over there:
- https://www.domme-chronicles.com/2011/11/when-your-submissive-says-no
I'm going to add, re physical strength: If I had even the slightest inkling, the lightest of light fears, that my man's physical strength was going to be AT ALL problematic in our relationship (vanilla OR D/s), I would GONE. It's not a consideration, ever.
Ferns
I totally get what you mean, especially about the cruelty. I had someone I fell for do this to me and I still have not got over them - even though I am certain they are the worst person for anyone to be with. I feel sure the reason they stick with us is because it is a Trauma Bond, a neurological thing. Very very hard to get rid of. I wish you well!!
ReplyDeleteTim (tc210)
No I don't agree and the point is that somethings the sub should not be able to say no to. If you have agreed to limits then he gets discipline if he says no and then needs to obey. It can be a game. Also it can be a choice if the sub wants to continue or not. If the sub doesn't feel like doing the chores, sorry. If the sub is sick OK that is an excuse. If he wants to watch a game on TV or read a book , No I don't agree. The sub needs to be serving you. If the sub and you are not a good fit then this can all happen. If you feel you are a good fit in many ways then that is both of your decision, everything cannot be perfect. You also need to make a decision.
ReplyDeleteThe dominant I look for, and don't find, wouldn't accept that unless I was sick or something serious was going on (or it crossed pre agreed limits)
Pebble
Hi I saw this post just now so I'll comment.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry you've experienced what you have with your boyfriend's ghosting you and the pain you still experience from it.
Next regarding FLR, FM/DD being only a game. I think there is an aspect of the chance of losing someone when you put your foot down and don't take no for an answer. A sort of 'My way or the Highway' approach. Your emotional pain may play into that.
I took my husband in hand, step by step and he now I have the final say except where I allow his input to sway my decision or change my mind.
Since I'm in control or charge of him I can choose to accept or disregard his advice, opinion and thoughts. I'm fair in our relationship and I try to be humble or wise enough to know I may not have all the best answers for a decision concerning our lives.
I've made too many mistakes thinking I know it all so I learned and I'll listen. In my position at work I listen to my managers that are under me to get their input so as to try to make the most informed decision for our business overall. They have expertise in areas I don't.
Now to the point of "it being a game." No! My husband receives real discipline along with the loss of privileges, or cancelled plans with his buddies. This is for being obstinate, rebellious, rude, obnoxious, lazy and a whole host of other negative behaviors that I now will simply not tolerate. I once threatened to send him home to his Mother's telling him I'd call her to inform her he was on his way. I said I'd let her know that he was not allowed back until he was ready to accept a good spanking from me just as he has for some time now. I offered to tell her it was one of the few things that has worked in our marriage on his behavior and I'm not going backwards. Funny? It didn't take him long to bare himself and get the brush. I spanked him soundly then I beat his backside with the brush to try to make sure he's never resist again!
I also took him back across my lap once a week for a month as a reminder. I didn't go easy and he was reminded that this was real!
I'll share more if you'd like. Vicki
PS. In the earlier years of our marriage we had a lot of issues and I had received a couple of good sound spankings for my piss poor attitude and behavior. They really woke me up to how I'd been acting and I changed my behavior. It worked for me so I decided it should work on my husband. It did and still does.
Vicki, After reading the reply to your post disagreeing with your methods, I wanted to write in support of it. As there is clear evidence of communication and ownership of fallibility, I would not agree that he was threatened with being thrown out of his home, permanently. Instead, I see it as he was given clear information about who and what you were and what you needed. Which in turn, knowing the dance we men have between surrender and our egos, is what he needed - i.e. a clear boundary. So I'm glad you shared and hope you'll share more.
DeleteIn my marriage, the DD is both play between us and, when needed, real. And of the two, I find it 1000 times more easy to surrender when I have no choice. A Strong Woman is a genuinely rare gift, and notable for her courage to lead.
Whether the threatened eviction was “permanent” or not is irrelevant. He was threatened with eviction to coerce submission to an assault. Far from rebutting it, the clarity of the “boundary” proves the use of coercion to obtain “consent.” If, as she says, it’s not a “game,” that further corroborates the lack of true consent. Moreover, he was specifically and repeatedly beaten for “resisting,” i.e., for refusing to consent I would love to cross examine someone with that as a defense. I would have as much fun as she had hurting him.
DeleteReply to me by email if you wish. Just go to my profile.
DeleteGetting someone to submit to beatings by threatening to throw them out of their domicile if they refuse to submit is not consensual. “Consent” obtained by coercion or duress is not consent at all.
ReplyDeleteI won't get into a back on forth on this, on here, but if you want to chat about it via email, then you can write to me. Click on the TM and it will take you to me profile and to my email.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Delete